FIN, RESET_STREAM, RESET_STREAM_AT, STOP_SENDING #589

martinduke · 2024-10-18T21:04:07Z

This is explicitly not dealing with FETCH at all, but it won't be hard for me to write something similar for the FETCH stream once the rubble settles on that proposal.

ianswett

LG overall, some small comments.

ianswett · 2024-10-19T12:29:18Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+objects when it , it MUST use a RESET_STREAM or RESET_STREAM_AT
+{{!I-D.draft-ietf-quic-reliable-stream-reset}} frame. This includes early
+termination of subscription due to an UNSUBSCRIBE message, a sender's
+decision to abandon the subscription before the Group is complete, or a


What if you give up on delivering a Subgroup due to Delivery Timeout?

For abandoning a subscription early, that corresponds to sending a SUBSCRIBE_DONE, correct?

I made Delivery Timeout as a reason explicit, instead of implicit.

As another issue makes clear, I don't know what SUBSCRIBE_DONE means. Is it a "Reset" or a "Fin" of a subscription? Or both?

It's typically a 'Fin' of a subscription. Maybe one sends a SUBSCRIBE_DONE when all subgroups have been Fin'd?

Well if it's a "subscribe fin", then it ends on a group boundary and all the streams will naturally close with their own FIN, with no special mechanism required.

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

ianswett · 2024-10-19T12:52:41Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+An Original Publisher MAY create EndOfSubgroup objects to provide further
+indication that streams are OK to close.
+
+[TODO: Do we still need EndOfSubgroup objects?]


Suggested change

[TODO: Do we still need EndOfSubgroup objects?]

[TODO: Do we still need EndOfSubgroup objects?]

Good question, I don't think so? Fetch doesn't need them clearly.

I would like to get rid of these, but am happy to do it in a different PR to avoid controversy. If no one wants EndOf Subgroup, we can kill it now.

The edge case I can imagine is if FETCH contents can be SUBSCRIBEd (see #588). There's some ambiguity about FIN if the FETCH ends in the middle of the group. I would be happy to have that uncertainty, personally, but others might disagree.

I'd like to get rid of them too. Setting the object ID is problematic. If we need to, we can retain them for FETCH specifically (though the object ID problem is still there.

I'm not sure there's a problem with FETCH? If you ask for the entire group, you get the entire group, if you ask for some Objects in a group, you get what you asked for with no indication as to whether it was the last object.

it's not that there's a "problem" with Fetch; it's that if there are EndOfSubgroup objects, you are potentially sending a LOT of them in response to a FETCH.

Not in this PR, but I think we should get rid of EndOfSubgroup entirely. FETCH response should omit DNE and EndOfGroup status, because they are implied by sequence number gaps and the beginning of the next group, respectively.

I wrote #596 to remove End Of Subgroup

ianswett · 2024-10-19T12:54:12Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+as to reliably deliver the objects it has while signaling that other objects
+exist.
+
+A relay MAY also use EndOfGroup messages in a Subgroup stream to close streams


Can we just remove this, as it is implied, but seems complex.

I won't die on this hill, but why not explicitly give people permission to do this?

Fair, maybe a reword would make me feel a bit better about it.

I slightly reworded and moved this paragraph, but I don't know if that solved your problem.

I did make a suggestion on a way to rewrite the paragraph

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

Co-authored-by: ianswett <[email protected]>

afrind

Individual Review

afrind · 2024-10-21T20:29:39Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+promptly frees system resources and often unlocks flow control credit to open
+more streams.
+
+If a sender has delivered all objects in a Subgroup, except any objects that


a sender has delivered all objects in a Subgroup

Seems like this only applies to the original publisher, right? For a relay, you need to explain how they know they have delivered all the objects in a subgroup.

Also, what does "delivered" mean? I think you mean they've been committed to the QUIC stream, rather than transmitted or acknowledged.

Should we say "requested" objects to be inclusive of subscribe filters?

This PR is mostly about how the relay knows it has received everything in the Subgroup!

I'll clarify the meaning of "delivered".

Subscribe filters can only omit the beginning of a subgroup, not the end, hence the "before the beginning of a subscription" excecption.

afrind · 2024-10-21T20:32:14Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+fall before the beginning of a subscription, it MUST close the stream
+with a FIN.
+
+If a sender closes the stream before verifying it has delivered all such


Same comment here regarding "verifying it has delivered".

OK, I changed this to enumerate three cases:

sent everything and wait for reliable delivery: FIN

didn't send everything: RESET_STREAM

sent everything, don't wait for delivery: FIN followed by RESET_STREAM.

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

afrind · 2024-10-21T20:41:42Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+An Original Publisher MAY create EndOfSubgroup objects to provide further
+indication that streams are OK to close.
+
+[TODO: Do we still need EndOfSubgroup objects?]


I'd like to get rid of them too. Setting the object ID is problematic. If we need to, we can retain them for FETCH specifically (though the object ID problem is still there.

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

ianswett

Some editorial comments, but this still LG from a functional perspective.

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

ianswett · 2024-10-22T00:14:51Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+An Original Publisher MAY create EndOfSubgroup objects to provide further
+indication that streams are OK to close.
+
+[TODO: Do we still need EndOfSubgroup objects?]


I'm not sure there's a problem with FETCH? If you ask for the entire group, you get the entire group, if you ask for some Objects in a group, you get what you asked for with no indication as to whether it was the last object.

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

ianswett · 2024-10-22T00:19:58Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+can forward stream FINs to its own subscribers once those objects have been
+sent. A relay MAY use EndOfGroup, EndOfSubgroup, GroupDoesNotExist, and
+EndOfTrack objects to close streams even if the FIN has not arrived, as further
+objects on the stream would be a protocol violation.


This sentence is a bit confusing and I'm not sure it's what we want. Why would you send any of these messages and not FIN the stream?

Sometimes the FIN arrives in a separate QUIC packet. This sentence allows you to anticipate the later FIN.

I'm still confused why a sender would do this, but I agree it's probably ok to do this.

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

ianswett · 2024-10-22T00:24:27Z

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

+as to reliably deliver the objects it has while signaling that other objects
+exist.
+
+A relay MAY also use EndOfGroup messages in a Subgroup stream to close streams


Fair, maybe a reword would make me feel a bit better about it.

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

Co-authored-by: ianswett <[email protected]>

This is a dependency of Martin's Stream FIN/RESET PR, #589

Co-authored-by: ianswett <[email protected]>

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

Co-authored-by: afrind <[email protected]>

This is a dependency of Martin's Stream FIN/RESET PR, #589

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

ianswett

I've tried to make any editorial changes so this is ready for merging I believe.

draft-ietf-moq-transport.md

martinduke · 2024-10-26T18:12:38Z

I've tried to make any editorial changes so this is ready for merging I believe.

LGTM

We don't discuss how to use it anyway. This was suggested in #589

martinduke added 2 commits October 18, 2024 13:55

Rules for FIN, RESET_STREAM, RESET_STREAM_AT

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Mention STOP_SENDING

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strawman for when to close streams #567

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SUBSCRIBEs end at a group boundary

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This is a dependency of Martin's Stream FIN/RESET PR, #589

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SUBSCRIBEs end at a group boundary #593

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nit

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Remove End Of Subgroup status #596

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SUBSCRIBEs end at a group boundary (#593)

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This is a dependency of Martin's Stream FIN/RESET PR, #589

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Use publisher and subscriber

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Are end-of-group messages mandatory? #442

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Object Status makes me sad #466

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Remove End Of Subgroup status (#596)

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We don't discuss how to use it anyway. This was suggested in #589

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This was referenced Feb 25, 2025

Updates for draft-08 englishm/moq-rs#36

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FIN, RESET_STREAM, RESET_STREAM_AT, STOP_SENDING #589

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martinduke commented Oct 26, 2024

	[TODO: Do we still need EndOfSubgroup objects?]
	[TODO: Do we still need EndOfSubgroup objects?]

FIN, RESET_STREAM, RESET_STREAM_AT, STOP_SENDING #589

FIN, RESET_STREAM, RESET_STREAM_AT, STOP_SENDING #589

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martinduke commented Oct 26, 2024