Indie Smiths
Possibility of changing "Indie Python" project's name #8
Replies: 5 comments 15 replies
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Just an additional consideration: As y'all know, with Nodezator surpassing 1K stars recently, the Indie Python project is getting even more visibility and our slow but constant growth rate is speeding up a little, which is great! That's why I thought that would be the perfect opportunity to rethink the name of the project, as the project and its software (mainly Nodezator), should go viral/get more views more often from now on. Since we are still relatively small, though, the change wouldn't affect us much if we make it this early, but now is a crucial time for that. |
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Thank you for the feedback! I once got a domain parked by a third-party in the past (I didn't renew it with the registrar at the time and thought I could just get it back when I needed). The group who acquired my domain was trying to sell it back to me for a price several times higher than the original. Thankfully with time they gave up and let the domain go, so I could purchase it back for the original price. I guess this experience made me wary about announcing names too soon before making them available. However, my caution here is probably excessive, since we are still a relatively small open-source community. I'll do as you both suggested and allow people to suggest names, then gather the most liked ones in a pool. However, I'll reserve myself the right to reject a suggestion if I think it strays too far from the goals/spirit of the project (in which case I'll properly communicate the exact reasons for it). Additionally, there's something that I do whenever I'm naming a new project that I think is a fair and relevant condition: the name suggested, when searched on Google, must not yield any results at all, or at least only results unrelated to our kind of project. This way we ensure the new name is very easy to find and doesn't shadow or is shadowed by an existing project. For instance, before launching Nodezator, searching its name would have Google saying "do you mean moderator?" Because nothing existed before Nodezator, once the app was published, it easily climbed to the top of Google searches. Mr. Alexander, changing the name only after a non-Python project is added is a sensible solution, but since the change aims to diversify/enrich the community by attracting users of other languages, I think they'd feel more comfortable if the project had a more broad or at least abstract name. For instance, if I were an avid Rust user, I'd think twice after engaging in discussions in a community called "Indie Python". It is not that I'd think badly of it, it is just that I'd not be sure there would be anything for me there. I want people to understand that we use Python because it is a good tool, not because we think it is the only worthy tool. And eventually, I want to show that by creating and publishing projects based in other languages. There's a more strong reason though: establishing an online presence, specially for open-source projects, is not easy and takes a lot of time. It took me a little more than 02 years for a piece of Nodezator content to do decently on social media. A few months after we had another decent hit on hackernews. That's why, I think if we are going to change the name of the project, the best moment is now when we are still small but showing a few growth spurts here and there. If it weren't for that, I too would be inclined to only change the project's name after we added a non-Python-based project. But if you still feels that'd be best, please speak up, since I'm also in need of all input I can get on such decision. Naming is already hard enough when it comes to programming, where the clarity of a module depends on aptly named variables/classes/functions. When it comes to a project that relies on views and donations to keep going and may help a lot of people with its free and open tools, the decision is even more important. As someone with a degree in Business Administration and which studied a lot of marketing, I know this all too well. I dare say it is as much a science as it is an art. Getting back to our discussion on possible new names. Here's what I've been thinking: I don't think "indie" is an awesome word, but it is nice, subtle, charming and even precise nonetheless. That is, "indie" has many connotations depending on the context used, but it is just short for "independent". I think it is appropriate for the project, since the project gathers software created by independent creators. In cinematography, for instance, the word immediately evokes independent films. It is no surprise that zines are evoked as well, since they are also independently created (I only came to know them a couple of years ago though, thanks to Julia Evans's work). In software, though, rather than independent development, it seems indie is more strongly associated with independent game development. I guess it is okay, since game development is also an important part of the project, and games are even mentioned in the goal of the project: to promote and provide fun, learning and value by publishing and maintaining open-source apps, games and content In summary, it seems "indie" always carries the idea of independence with it, although in practice it usually manifests more strongly as an instance of the thing that is independently created, like independent films or the zines or indie games. Unfortunately, My second suggestion would be a play on the words "indie" and "indispensably": indiespensably. In my mind it could even have an accompanying slogan: "indispensably free and open projects", to convey how we value FOSS. It is an adverb, so it qualifies things, that is, it doesn't refer to any concrete thing. This means it is broad enough, and since it has "indie" in it, it still somehow conveys "independent creation". On top of that, it follows the practice of many tech organizations of naming their products/projects by ending with |
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@ultimateownsz I only saw your reply after writing my own, so I didn't include my feedback on it, so here it is: Yes, the idea is to make indie tools or something more broad like that. I agree with you that we must be careful not to end up loosing our identity by trying to cater to many different audiences, but I think in our case, our audience is still somewhat homogeneous group: indie programmers. There's even several business/communities that cater to that same audience, like hackernews, wired.com, dev.to. But again, I don't want to sound like I'm too sure about all of this. Your concern is valid, which is why all feedback is welcome (and suggestions for new names). And again, as I said, I'm not entirely sure I'll end up doing this. It is a big step that requires careful consideration and in the end is hard to predict anyway. |
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Unfortunately, a Google search on "indietools" shows several projects/services use that name (or similar variations) already, so it isn't a valid suggestion. Also, for anyone reading that, although I like the usage of "indie", it isn't a requirement. The only hard requirement is that a Google search either returns nothing or at least doesn't return any projects with that name. |
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I think a google search is good too look up for names, what a key thing in most projects of open source is. Is about how your documentation is written, is it easy to follow, easy to maintain etc. Many open source projects fail because of it, the name mostly doesn't matter too much to most projects imo. If you want it more like a brand name, I understand what you want to do. This is a tool you could use: |
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My thoughts exactly! Indie Python is already a great name and it shows on top of Google searches. The only grip I have about it is how uninviting it is to non-Python programmers. I know many software projects are named relative to the techs they use, but since I want to use many different langs/tools (although predominantly Python), the name is an obstacle to that. I know with time and work people could get used to an Indie Python project that contains projects in other langs, but there will always be the unaware passersby that stumble upon the project's name on the internet, see that it mentions a lang they don't use and as a result ignore it completely. Another problem, or rather, a pet peeve I have with it is how formal it is. For instance, check the names of these 02 excellent video game developer business: Santa Monica Studios and Naughty Dog. The former is great, informative and to the point. But I prefer the second one, which is more playful. I think this kind of names better communicate the culture/spirit behind an organization/community without harming its professionalism. Ironically, although "Indie Python" can be considered formal because it simply states the name of the tech/lang, the Python language itself was named after the Monty Python Flying Circus, the comedy series, not the animal. In other words, the language author itself wanted its name to be somewhat playful. By the way, thank you for the link shared! If I ever stumbled upon such tool in the past I don't recall. Very useful tool! |
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Hey Kennedy, good to read some news!! The first thing that came to my mind was "Indie go blue" (for the gilberto gil song) but you want to remove a language name, and i added "go" to the mix XD hahaha. Well i just wanted to say hi i guess. (y) Waiting to hear some more stuff about the new APP project. |
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I forgot to comment. Are you familiar with obsidian (the note taking app)? |
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Thank you for the recommendation. I know about Obsidian, but didn't know it was programmable/extensible. I'll check it. Regarding the name recommendation, it is not a bad one, but I'd like something more general, that everyone could understand, rather than something referring to a specific song from Brazil. The "go" in it also doesn't help, as you pointed out 😆 (which by the way, seems to be an excellent lang, but alas we don't want to mention langs or other techs in the project's name. I just started development of the app maker, or rather, its first MVP/alpha, but didn't publish anything yet. You can follow news about its design/development as well as engage with ideas, feedback and suggestions here: IndieSmiths/myappmaker-sdd#1 The repo is for its SDD (software design document), but I expect to publish a repo for the actual app soon, which I should announce there and on Discord. |
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Hello, everyone, Some of you may not know, but I actually learned a bit of PHP and Javascript in the past. I even make a primitive but functional CMS system in PHP for a personal website I had back then. I've also studied a bit of Rust and Haskell in the past couple of years and recently got back to my Haskell studies for the sake of learning about different type systems and as a result better understand the kind of typing tooling that projects like mypy bring to the Python ecosystem. This only served to stoke even more the fires of excitement and passion for techs/langs in general and my desire to make the Indie Python project even more inviting to users of other techs/langs. I even discussed this in more detail today in a reply to Mr. Alexander in another discussion. Here it is for your convenience:
I think all those words do a good job of summarizing the reasons behind changing the name of the project. With this, I'd like to proceed with the idea, and in fact change the name of the project starting in April. So far, no one expressly rejected the idea. At most, Mr. Alexander expressed that perhaps we should waint until a non-Python-based project was actually introduced before making the change. Not an unwise idea actually, but the truth is that, given all the work that goes into making a domain place first in search engines and for the name of the project to stick in people's minds, I'd like to make the change as soon as possible. Specially now that Nodezator is starting to get more views/visits/users, it is the perfect opportunity to change the name of its parent project and make it more widely known. In addition to that, in April I have to renew the That's why, if no one is against the idea, I'd like to set in motion the process to change the name of the Indie Python project. Please, if someone still has concerns or is against this, please, let us know here. For now, this is how this process will go:
Thank you for your attention once more. As always, all feedback is appreciated. Nothing in this project is set in stone and we are always open to dialogue and to change our course of action. Next I'll post a few suggestions I gathered on pygame/pygame-ce discord's server. |
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Here are a few suggestions I gathered on pygame/pygame-ce discord's server (the other ones were good names but were taken already):
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Those both sound like descriptions of usergroups rather than projects per se. If you drop the s, the latter is perhaps more workable: IndieSmith, though like blacksmith, whitesmith, bladesmith, gemsmith, feels more occupation-description than tool/library --- that said, it has the same sort of ambiguity as "Indie Python", so feels like a good fit. |
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One user in the pygame discord said "indiecoders" sounds like an elementary school CS club 🤣 As for indiesmith (with the "s" dropped), it is a parked domain. Regardless, I actually like both names. I don't mind the resemblance to user groups, because one way or the other one of the goals of any open-source project (at least in my opinion) should be growth, that is, gathering more and more users/members (which is different in concept to user groups but similar in nature, that is, people with similar goals and/or shared interests). Of both names, the one I like the most is IndieSmiths, because even if we think of smiths as the actual occupations, it still fits the spirit of the project in a way: the occupation itself evokes the action of creating, not unlike that of software development. In the same way, we are forging tools. The difference is that instead of metal, we use computer code. It is not much different from what is evoked by the name SourceForge, the web service that provides free hosting for open source projects. As a bonus, it is an occupation very popular in fantasy and video game settings, which is also fitting for this project, since it is also our goal to release games. Edit: grammar |
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IndieSmith sounds like the HackSmith thing but than indie haha |
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Call to everyone who gave feedback here: the pool is on: What will be the new name of the Indie Python project? @00-0o Thank you all for your feedback and suggestions. If a suggestion made here wasn't considered, it is because it didn't have a .com domain available or another project using it already exists. |
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Hello, everyone,
This is something on which I didn't decide yet, and even if I end up doing it, I'd only act on it on March/April (that is, changing the names/urls of our channels/profiles).
The change
The proposed change consists in replacing the "Python" portion of the "Indie Python" project's name for a more general term. That is, instead of "IndiePython" or "Indie Python", we'd use
Indie[________](a single word) orIndie [________], where the[________]would be a more general term.This way the name of the project wouldn't limit us to using a single programming language. The new term may even be something more abstract or meta, to give us even more flexibility without compromising our identity, which will still remain centered around the independent development/production of open-source software and related content.
The exact term used will be chosen at my own discretion, since I must give it careful consideration and examination regarding additional things like the available domain and URLs in social media and other online services. However, I intend to disclose the final name to patrons of the project, to gather their feedback before ultimately deciding on it.
The reason
Programming languages and other technologies are tools. Each are great for some purposes and not so great for others.
Several open-source communities exist around specific programming languages and technologies, but even among their members there are people who use others langs/techs as well, or use that specific lang/tech in conjunction with other langs/techs.
Both in the Indie Python community and in the pygame-ce community I know people who use several langs/techs for work or side projects. C/C++, F#, Haskell. I myself started learning a bit of Rust and Haskell awhile ago, but also know a bit of PHP and a decent amount of Javascript.
Of course, everyone has their favorite languages/technologies, and loving/liking them is fine. But the contrary seems excessive, that is, hating a lang/tech or deciding to never use it is nonsensical and unscientific. At the very least, a lang/tech you don't like may offer you a competitive edge when used in conjunction with your main lang/tech for a specific problem. Who knows?
I don't know the origin of the expression/idea, but in some programmer circles here in Brazil people say that a developer wearing a shirt with the logo of a favorite programming language is like a civil engineer wearing a shirt with a wrench or a brick. Civil engineers don't fight among themselves over whether to use cement or plaster. Rather, they use both, depending on several factors, like the project itself, the purpose, etc.
Obviously, there's nothing wrong in using and promoting your favorite language, including the usage of related apparel. The point is that, when it comes to practice, we must not close our eyes to the benefits of other languages and technologies.
Implications
For the foreseeable future, that is, the next few years, this possible change (remember, I didn't decide on it yet) wouldn't change anything.
I love Python and intend to work with it for the rest of my life. It is also within the goal of the project to make and release games and I intend to keep using mainly pygame-ce for them.
However, making and releasing apps and games in other languages as well will greatly enrich the project. This will be possible because that will allow exchange of ideas with an even greater pool of minds from other open-source communities associated with different programming languages and technologies.
Even though bigger projects using other languages/technologies would only be included in a few years, starting from now, from time to time I might also release small utilities/minigames made in other languages as a way to help promote such exchange earlier.
Regardless of all that, I still intend to invest the majority of my time and effort in Python-based software projects. So the essence of the project would remain the same. We'd still be an indie Python project, but also one that is more open to other languages and technologies as well.
A more general/abstract term would also allow us to launch more ambitious projects in the future once we have more funding and a larger community, things like robotics, automation and other scientific related stuff. But that's for a good amount of years into the future.
As always, all feedback is appreciated!
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